Podcast: New ways of working, future of work, HR
Industry: Financial services, professional services, marketing
A revolution is happening in HR. The rebels vs. the traditionalists. There is a yearning and need for a new mindset in HR, one that understands the shift in the workforce from company-lead to individual-led. Listen to David Reay, SVP People at Condé Nast,, as he shares how his diverse career experiences - and startup principles - have shaped his view on HR.
Listen above to this podcast episode of Talk Roleshare or read the transcript below.
In this podcast episode of Talk Roleshare we cover the following:
- David Reay’s personal story
- What is the relationship between an individual and an organization? How are companies responding?
- What unrealized potential is there in the workforce today?
- What was it about this concept of bridging skills and experiences to job share that initially piqued David's interest?
- What is silent quitting? Is it a new thing?
- Peer to peer learning is one of the most effective ways to learn.
- How managers can handle job sharing.
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Sophie Smallwood
Hey, this is talk with Roleshare. I'm Sophie Smallwood, co founder of Roleshare.com. Meet David Reay. He's the SVP of people at Conde Nast. And previously, he was SVP of HR at Sony. There's a revolution happening in HR, the rebels versus the traditionalists. There's a yearning and a need for a novel mindset in HR. Listen to David as he shares how his diverse career experiences and startup thinking and principles has shaped his thinking on HR, and how that marries itself to the shift in the workforce from company led to individual Led
Sophie Smallwood
So David, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your own personal story and magic?
David Reay
Oh, my God, I love it. I'm kinda like, I'm not sure there's much magic, I guess how I feel. And maybe this is this is both sides, probably a quite an unremarkable story insofar as like it was pretty normal. You know, I'm going back to where I grew up, I think that sometimes it's shaped my path, my views on life, my values. And so I grew up in a really small town in the northwest of the UK, very picturesque area, near the lake district, beautiful. But it was this really small kind of industrial town, you know, had a great support in kind of family where it was like, do your best, like I remember, that's all I was ever told that the pressure was never there, it was just about work hard, do your best. It'll be all good. Life will be fine. We're fine. We're proud. So that's kind of how it was been ingrained in me in terms of like, working hard, as always been for me equated to just kind of life doing stuff progression, though. So that's kind of where it started.
David Reay
And that kind of ethos has taken me to some weird and fantastic places where I've learned so I remember when we first connected, so fie and chatting a bit about what I don't like. So I started out in. So in a recognizable brand, I went to Procter and Gamble that was then outsourced to IBM, I went to do German payroll, I studied people, human resources in German at university, and then that kind of started to ease into I was like, what else? What next? I think that's part of my journey. My magic is I'm, I've got this insatiable, like, let's keep moving. Let's not stand still. So that took me back to where I grew up in in, there was a startup organization, in the nuclear industry of all places. So then I went to nuclear was just like a kid in a sweet shop, I was in a startup where everything was to be built. I was in my early 20s. I was like, This is amazing, like I'm doing.
David Reay
So that kind of gradual, like insatiability learning experiences fed me right through to kind of go, what else I feel like I need to broaden my horizons, like, Where can I go, I know London. And then that's kind of my tunnel that I took then. So then I came and went into industries in the defense industry. I went into insurance, and was very much like honing my expertise around odd talents, learning. And then kind of what happened was something magical, I will use your word there that I got an opportunity to go into a creative industry. So I went into the music industry, in a Bradley brand, newly created role, which was all about building culture development, the organization innovation, and it was like the elastic bands came off my head. I was like, Oh my word. That was why I've done 10 years of really bizarre industries.
David Reay
And that's just where I've gone and it was just again, that quest for doing things, doing things that mattered really became important as I started that last 10 years of my working career, and I guess for me, the story is just I feel very lucky that I was just encouraged no pressure I was just encouraged. And now I'm in my kind of holy ethos is how do you pay back like, I've had some great times I've had some great memories and experiences but how do I help help others in small ways doing what I do and what I've learned and that's really kind of my story now in terms of like where I'm looking for impact and helping people align what we've all been growing up with in a very traditional way around work with what is it we really care about, and can we marry the two and I think that's where I think what you guys are doing with roll share super exciting for me on my journey personally but for people at large now.
Sophie Smallwood
You said something here that reminds me a little bit about what Q Hamirani said, who is one of our advisors at Roleshare, he had quite a diverse career as well. He was in the music industry as well. There was interest in DJ and production then he moved to big consulting and then he moved over to Airbnb. And he says those diverse experiences as an HR leader today actually have made him I'm really good. And really, I think gives them an interesting perspective. When it comes to people in growth and development, I'd love to get your view on what you think are the macro trends that we should really hone in on in the future of work? The ones that you feel are most exciting?
David Reay
Yeah. Like, there's a lot in my head. So I might "oh is there one", I don't think so. Things that are always going through my mind right now is trends around like, the fairness and equity kind of agenda debate and where we've been in the last few years. That's not going away, because it's been with us for much longer than I think everybody realizes - it's just acute now. I think that for me is huge still. I think the piece around individual wellness, wellbeing, high performance. I think that is, again, very high level, but kind of something that I'm paying attention to all the time. How do we solve for this now, and ultimately, the part that I'm obsessed with is purpose. I'm like, we are not robots. That's the beauty of us all as a species. We are not robotic, we've got feelings, we've got multiple kind of multi dimensional kind of personalities, all of that.
David Reay
What is the role? What is the relationship between an individual and an organizational. That is the bit that if I were to sum up, what I'm curious about, I'm paying attention to, I'm trying to solve for myself, is this kind of employer/employee, even hate the words, by the way, so I'm kind of like individual/group kind of relationship, how that's been disrupted. And let's, you know, I don't want to take us back the last couple of years, but it's been a catalyst for people having moments. All of us at the same time to go, "what is it? I want to do? How do I fit things together?" How are companies kind of ready to embrace a new conversation, a new dynamic or just new demands. I was talking to some friends yesterday, these aren't unreasonable things to talk about.
David Reay
I remember when I joined Sony Music and the see the CPO at the time, who hired me, her favorite thing was like, "we are not just one person, when we walk into work, we are many things". How are companies responding to that? How are we articulating that as individuals - what is it we need? And ultimately is this where we start thinking about what good jobs are? Or what good work is, that allows us all to live harmoniously again, and kind of get the new contract? So that's something obsessed with? Do I have all the answers? No. Do I have any answers? I'm not so sure, either. But it's a thing we should be paying?
Sophie Smallwood
Yeah absolutely. And the way I about it as well is... individuals, one of the things we all have in common is life is finite. And companies might not live forever, but they could potentially be amortal, like living for a really long time. And so that actually creates almost this unhealthy dichotomy of priorities. When you think about the workforce today, what do you see as unrealized potential?
David Reay
Well, I think it goes back to that key words I've used a couple of times already is like purpose. I think the untapped conversation in the workplace is helping people go, what is it you really care about? Like, we've got a construct that we've all been living with, like, regardless of industry, there's very similar constructs, we know similar types of roles, just nuanced, etc. What is it that lights people upm that isn't that job description that we've hired them against? And if we really help people understand tha, and I have my moments where I'm like, we don't do enough of this in our education system. So therefore, we start asking these big questions too late in life.
David Reay
And then it's like, oh my god, like, again, to your point like with like the finite life is like, "Oh my word like deeply miss a moment" or more than a moment to explore this to create this alignment. And, you know, I've kind of been working in various roles where it's like, on the assumption, if we help people earlier in their careers, identify, think about this idea of like, where do I get fire from? What is it I really care about? And then how can that lead or influence? What we do in the working context, in that space at that time, oh my word like what could happen --engagement, performance, business innovation. The payback on a business, corporate capitalist level, could be huge, as well as individuals who feel, like, fulfilled or heard. And so, again, it's an obsessions for years now. And I do think it's great. It's a conversation, but now it's the practical -- how do you help people do this, and then align it and that? I think, HR professionals like myself, that's our duty to help with that. That's what I think we get employed to do, to help people and organizations do amazing stuff.
Sophie Smallwood
It's about existentialism, right? What are some ways that companies can enable purpose and show support around this need of existentialism, whether it's around your interests outside of work, or you're caring responsibilities for family or other people that you that you value or even just self care? Right? So how can companies enable that and support that, while at the same time meeting the demands of their own business?
David Reay
Yeah, I think there's lots of different elements. I think the last couple of years, especially we've seen organizations and people functions make such huge strides in what they now kind put at the top of the priority list, what they invest in, etc. So I think this space that people have created the support around wellbeing, etc, I think is huge. I think, for me the angle that I came from, and maybe this is missing the point, I don't know, but I was like, "How can you marry individual purpose and ambition with the construct in the world that we live in?" As was a five day a week, very traditional, like I'm going to some building to do something. Probably the last 10 years now, I have been playing around with programmatic ways and experiences -- where it starts with the individual, giving people space to work out? Who am I? What do I care about? They're great conversations that people need guiding through. So a lot of programs I that's where I'd start with, but then now you've got some of that insight that you feel like, "Oh, my God, I've got clarity", then it's using that. What do you care about so much that you would love to experiment or play with in the world that you work? So are there things that people aren't talking about opportunities that you now go "I'd love to try that, and giving people the space and permission to do that." And the tools, you know, so a lot of what I've done is marry, work around emotional intelligence and purpose with business innovation, and shamelessly stealing things from the world of Lean Startup. Like, I'm not afraid to say that's where I go with this is design thinking. Put them together and go and experiment and see what potentially could come from your own ambition. That is about individuals solving things that they care about, for an organization versus the organization telling them, this is the problem we want you to solve. And what does that do? It's more sustaining, it's more enjoyable. Things can be surprising. So that's been a bit of a recipe that I've been playing and tinkering with for a while now. What is the unrealized potential? I think it's that.
David Reay
Yeah. How do you enable or encourage HR leaders to have that mindset of experimentation? And I assume it's somewhat tied to the company culture and the leaders that surround them. But how do you enable that? Because it seems like sometimes there's sort of an aversion and it's not just HR. There's always human aversion to trying new things. So how do you create that safe space and competence to experiment, as you said,
David Reay
Don't tell people what you're actually up to, like us Trojan horses make people feel like yeah, I wanted a talent program, "Oh, I'm getting that!" Build it, don't tell them too much. And then let the results, the experiences, the energy speak for itself. So that's been one of my tactics. Baby steps, low risk experimentation -- what is the worst that can happen? We learn something you've not invested, you've not had to go and talk about million dollar investments. We're teaching people, you can do stuff really small, and make progression. So the actual risk here or the worst that can happen is tiny. So a lot of that has also helped people on unlock in an organization that I've been in. That's all you need - permission to play.
Sophie Smallwood
Yeah, really good point. So you and I connected initially around what we're doing and what we're building at Roleshare - the platform. What was it about this concept of, you know, coming together bridging skills and experiences to job share and what we're doing at Roleshare that initially piqued your interest? Um,
David Reay
There's a couple of things. The whole awakening that we are more than just like one full time equivalent, nine to five in a building doing something. People have gone through it and experience around the world, all at the same time. For many has made them question lots of things about how we've all been living our lives. And how then do we now go back and re-package, the traditional work with all these other things that are now circulating in our lives, in our families, in our hearts. That was one of the biggest things that really got me curious about, you know, what you and the team are doing it Roleshare. Is this actually a way to help resolve some of these questions and tension that I think are really what we're living with right now?
David Reay
And for me, personally, I've done the same. I'm now sitting here going, "I've had an amazing 20 years of doing various things in various industries, hopefully making a little bit of an impact. But now I'm like, Oh, I've got I'm curious about other things that aren't just about HR work and corporates, you know, how do I fit like, my interests around fitness now? And how does that fit? And how can I develop something that I feel could benefit what I'd been doing, but is also adjacent?" So there's a very personal reason for me, can I through a concept like this, have this fuller, rounder, kind of experience going forward? So I think for me, I think what your mission, your purpose is, is really tapping into a moment.
Sophie Smallwood
Really interesting that you say this. I was at a conference yesterday and met a few individuals who were at a point in their lives where they had achieved quite a bit in their careers, they wanted to carry on on that path, because it had meaning for them. But they wanted the other aspect of their life in their career to be more agile to pursue other projects that they were equally passionate about. And as a whole, it's exactly what you said it was to be just better, like fully rounded, to be able to, in essence, achieve what they felt was their full potential. That seems to be a growing trend. There's something around the generational mindset here as well. Is it like a Gen Z? Mindset, potentially, millennials might be flowing into that as well. Now, when it comes to people coming together, to share skills and to share jobs, what possibilities do you see as an HR leader, that could help to create in an organization?
David Reay
So for me, there's one big conundrum that organizations like always struggle with, and that is one to everything. They've got finite resources, they've got finite investment, but they want everything. And so for me, one of the really interesting parts as well - this could really help organizations. Sometimes they're quite schizophrenic, as in like, we want somebody strategic, we need somebody to build the vision etc. Oh, but on three days a week, we need somebody who's operational to build like systems and practices and processes. And they've tried to put it all in this one idea of role. And for me, it's like they're two different personalities, two different sets of experiences. There's two different sets of motivations and ambitions. However, what if you could get this as a concept where it's like, two elements of what you need, in one Roleshare complimenting each other, that drives something.There's something in this, that you can start to satisfy a lot of what a business's probably struggled with. And also, to be fair, let's not ignore what we read in the news today, in the last month as well, about headwinds and everything else that the world is facing economically, financially. This feels like a smart thing to be looking at how we grow, experiment, build mindset that what you can get from somebody, three days a week, each side could be phenomenal. And that idea of doing that plus an individual is like, and I've got space to explore other things in my life, or just have more capacity to be with my family. Like, you could be really winning. And so I'm like, you know, we've got this whole concept of that's out there silent quitting, and it's like, is it a new thing? Is it not? Like we were debating that in a conversation yesterday. All that stuff comes down to just giving people a great experience that gives them joy, and that they feel like they're able to fit all their worlds together in one.
David Reay
You know, if you Google and you look at the definitions of silent quitting. Ultimately, it's like, I think it's going into people just being very clear about their boundaries in what they do, etc. And then I'm going, "is there anything wrong with that?" Like, we're in a time, over these last years, where we all lost perspective about what your boundaries were there or should be there. So is is it necessarily bad? I'm on the fence now?
Sophie Smallwood
That's really interesting. There is being aligned to your strengths, and really doing the work that energizes you. And because it energizes you, the company gets the most out of you. I think that's great. And I think that should be something that becomes the norm, with opportunities to learn new skills as well and to grow. And then there's this aspect of doing the bare minimum, and you're kind of checked out, that's a different thing. Is it not in your view?
David Reay
Yeah. And it was funny, we were also talking about this whole idea of like, "oh, discretionary effort," and, you know, some organizational examples were, "well, of course, we want them to do that after their day job, don't we." And then it's like, Is that the right mindset to have? Over the last few years, people have been doing workforce planning on the assumption that people will constantly do twice as much for an organization. And that cluster is highly engaged. And discretionary effort baked into our, our financial and workforce planning. So actually are we balancing and right sizing? And is the term silent quitting just, it's the wrong term for what people are actually trying to describe. It's like trying to be a bit more provocative, we keep labeling things, but actually are we doing the wrong thing and creating some swirl when you shouldnt'?
Sophie Smallwood
Really, really interesting, David. So a question that we get from people who are curious or who don't quite click yet is "why not just hire two part timers? Why do you need a job share?"
David Reay
Right. And I think another point is this concept of peer to peer learning, even if two people aren't necessarily working together on the same days, they're still strategizing together for objective, right. And I read a Harvard Business Review, article a while back, where they give examples of peer to peer learning as being one of the most effective ways for people to learn because you go through the entire learning loop. That's another uniqueness around the sharing. Because you you're measured together, so there's more motivation to grow and learn together, and to share.
David Reay
Just the word share, I think is so important. Because one of the biggest things, regardless of industry, has been, you're always trying to get over silos, it's my space, this is what I'm doing. And then all the political kind of energy that needs to be going into my little piece of the pie. How does that fit. Whereas I think there's something symbolic, I think there's something quite big about talking about sharing a role. It's explicit. This is one thing, this is all fitting together versus if you had two part time roles, you're segmenting something that maybe creates more confusion, more tension than we need to. So for me, that's where I reacted to this when I saw it again. And then also, do you go into practical element. Just make sense for business continuity. It's like that whole idea of a really strong relationship with two individuals sharing something that passes over, that you've got no egos in this. Something that's set up, kind of from the get go. But feel feels incredibly positive.
Sophie Smallwood
So another question we get oftentimes is around the pair itself. So you have people working together, they're sharing a role for maybe a year, two years, sometimes 15 years, and one person leaves. What do you do then?
David Reay
Oh, this is a tricky one. Because I think so much of how this will sign, is the relationship and the chemistry between the two individuals. And so I think, you know, in that eventualities, it will be have to be really important conversation with the person that remains and the organization. What a hierarchy, what made that a success and identify the key traits of what that person brought behaviorally, personality wise, experience wise. Are we replicating this? Have we moved on, have we matured? Is it a different profile? So I think it's not a disaster. But I think this would really make you have to spend time reflecting around, what is it that made that a success, to then kind of identify how that would evolve, rather than just plug a person in with the same CV?
Sophie Smallwood
Yean. And with role sharing, we understand as you said, there's a chemistry piece for sure. And there's certain sub criteria that I think are really important around motivation, right? And the way we would answer that, obviously, would be well, certainly one of the benefits, in the case where someone leaves in a job share -- because it's the same thing, if anyone leaves in another individual, like are you going to find an exact replica of that person to replace them no, you might get some skills that were better, and now you might miss some disclose skills that that person had -- you still have another person there to at least create some continuity, so that there isn't a complete loss of knowledge, some of those utility skills that were transferred over from the other person still remain. And you can leverage a platform like Roleshare now to find a match for that individual as well as the role. But then what I think is interesting is, and an opportunity, is around the onboarding. You have someone who is motivated to onboard this new comer to share the role. So again, that peer to peer learning loop, onboarding faster sharing, and not holding your cards to yourself to be successful together.
Sophie Smallwood
Oftentimes, when we speak to people around this concept of job sharing, they're familiar with it, they might have seen it done on an ad hoc basis. But when you think about it programmatically, they start to say, "Ooh, hold on, is this something that like a lot of people in my organization are going to want to do? That scares me? How are managers going to handle this? Isn't going to be more work for a manager to have to manage a job share? What would you say to that?
David Reay
Get them to define what more work. Actually, when you do great management, it actually is really easy. "Oh my god, I've got to have more one to ones" and yeah, but spending time with people to give them directions, give them feedback, lets them fly it out. Not that big of an ask. Is this genuinely more work? Probably what it will encourage managers to be is more thoughtful, more planful, be more kind of clear as well in terms of direction? And are they actually bad things? Or is this just going to provoke good behaviors from a management and leadership perspective as well? I don't feel this is a onerous task for somebody, it will probably encourage, and help managers, leaders develop really good behaviors,
Sophie Smallwood
The way that I sometimes envision it is you have this triangle. And between the two job sharers, there is a hard line. They're holding each other accountable, they're working together, they share this objective.They're going to self solve. They're going to work to try and make this as as effective for themselves and for the team without creating an extra burden. We often hear that when people are sharing a role, they will really want to prove that this is such a good thing. And so there's this almost hard line between the two of them. And in effect, what then happens is the other lines that go to the tip of the triangle are almost like dotted lines. So on a day to day for things that maybe an individual contributor might go to a manager for unless it's like specific approval, it might be that the pair self solves, right? And then they really escalate for things that are truly necessary, or for those approvals that only a manager can provide
David Reay
100%. It makes sense. The mindset of individuals that want to engage in this kind of approach to work, I think is actually about positive intent. Zero ego. And wanting to do it for reasons bigger than just the organization. Two individuals together who go like, we're going to make this as easy as possible for ourselves, but for everybody around us, because they want it to be success. I think that's where this is different too. For example, sometimes in organizations where they say let's have a co leadership structure, you both lead together, and then you go figure it out. But you've not got things like that's the company to kind of doing that to you. So the intent is questionable, people's motivations and ambitions. Whereas I think this is from the other side.
Sophie Smallwood
Right. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And the future of work, I really believe is individual led, whereas in the past, it was very much group,. we'll say company in this case. Similar to the retail space where for a long time, what we could buy was what was available in retail, the way that they packed, the way they did it. And then over time, with the advent of ecommerce, then it shifted to consumer led. And we know that things happen faster in that world, in the consumer world. And now I think we're seeing that shif, in HR and COVID accelerated it.
David Reay
Yeah, totally. Ultimately for me, the big piece is always like, people want choice now -- how they do it, what they do, why they do it, where they do it. And for me again, about why this piques my interest. I think this is about giving people even just pause for thought to be like, "Oh, just this give me choice."
Sophie Smallwood
I love it.
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